August 21, 2008 by Ciaran Laval
Posted in
Banlines are a contentious issue, many of us feel they are a nuisance but we also want the right to privacy. So far there has been no happy compromise. However sometimes using banlines can earn you a warning from Linden Lab.
I was posted a link to a blog where a resident received a warning for having banlines on their parcel and Maggie Linden's responses are truly breathtaking, I mean this poor guy just wants a bit of privacy and what happens? He gets a warning and really, is there any need for responses like Maggie provides?
Resident: "How am i receiving a warning for a function on my land allowed by linden labs. Where in the TOS does it say I cannot use banlines for privacy?"
Maggie "On a 16m parcel? Er. Do you stand in the middle of it and knit, or something like that?"
Robo Marx I'm sure all our readers here share your sense of outrage and injustice!
You can read the full shocking story here.
I'd write more but I can't stop laughing!
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Wanna laugh some more/ THIS COULD BE YOU!!
Ok here it is more mind boggling inconsistencies. I have the Nudge slots on my gaming area. They are sold all throughout SL and played. They are considered skill game because you can line up the symbols after you spin. Well Harry replies to my appeal and says mine are illegal and returns them. Thats fine but they have been in use since gambling was banned, and they dont even let the creator know they are deemed illegal. Love me or hate me, but as with other issues in TOS I have same rights as others. I notified the creator and he is trying to discuss issue since that is how he makes his $$, he says noone else had a problem with returned machines tho. I have come up with a solution to save LL GTEAM time, and residents $$$. Now the ball is in LL court do they want to solve problems or allow TOS to be violated enough for them to profit from it!
Harry these nudgers I was warned about are for sale and play all over SL. They are all listed approved by ZARA Linden. I understand she no longer approves games, but this seems odd. LL can not make a policy for one resident and make it different for others. I would like you to take another look at the machine if you did not completely inspect it, I can send you a copy. Also, in order for others not to be in violation of TOS unknowingly, I believe LL should put out an official policy in reference to these machines if they are deemed illegal. They gray areas here in Sl are hurting a lot of businesses financially. I have 30k Invested here because I was under impression they are legal as others do. My company may be out L$, but its unfair for others to spend L$ on items they are under the impression are legal, and then be reprimanded. If LL plans on being the forefront in virtual worlds, policies should be strictly outlined and adhered to for the fairness to residents. I would also recommend the Gteam put out notice when they find something they deem is in violation of TOS. This would not only comfort the residents when making purchases, but it will also make your job easier because if new items are in direct violation we can all be educated. This is a very easy issue to deal with, and once you have implemented it the GTEAM will be able to tackle some of the many other issues in SL.
TY
Robo Marx
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastiat/100/100/30
So the guy was using ban
So the guy was using ban lines on 16m parcels to harrass people into buying them, and he's complaining that LL is harrassing him? That's hilarious.
Robo branched out into gambling
I was over checking out a roadside auction parcel on Athabasca, and I was interested to note that he was advertising a casino on his microlots. He had a sign up on one and on another he was using the land sales mechanism as a free ad placement. (That is, he advertised the casino in his land description, so it showed up when someone clicked in the right spot on the world map.)
I Abuse Reported his sorry butt for this infraction.
(I wish I had the SLURL handy... and maybe I can find it... yes! here it is: secondlife://Athabasca/146/132/20 )
"Blue Diamond Gaming -For the best in LL legal skill games
BDVR presents Blue Diamond Gaming -For the best in LL legal skill games come play in the Bastiat beachfront sim. STOP BY TO GET 20,000 FREEBIES! Nudge slots and games of skill!! http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastiat/89/89/28 "
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Tammy Nowotny
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Well Tammy thats well and good BUTT
The adfarm rule was put into place in order to stop land sellers from placing ads on plots in order to commit so called extortion with higher priced lots(4 per sqm certainly isnt extortion). So you should educate yourself on the LL policies before you waste all that time you have on your hands. Ty for your concern anyway.
Robo
I do agree that L$4/sq m isn't extortion
L$4/sq m is not extortion, Robo... I do grant you that. But that's irrelevant. You don't sell land for L$4/ sq m.
(I actually put a 16 sq m parcel up in an existing adfarm for L$4/ sq m up for sale a few weeks back. I sold a little slower than I expected, taking two days to sell, and someone who appears to not to be a small plot extortionist snapped it up. (I guess you guys don't really pay all that much attention to the regular land market, even though you do swap parcels amongst yourselves.)
In any case, adfarmers are not the subject of derision because they put land up for sale for unrealistically high prices. You are totally within your rights. It's not even advertising. In fact, in case you hadn't noticed, the adfarmers who actually put up real ads... the Chrishchun Fassbinders and Tyrian Camilos, are slightly less hated than the ones who don't. (The worst ones are the ones who put up huge megaprim monstrosities which aren't really intended as advertising. But the ones who don't put up ads at all... like yourself until this week, Robo... are ironically hated more than the ones who put up real ads. And the people who put low-prim vendors on small plots which actually sell stuff are subject to little if any revilement.)
The problem is that you harrass other residents.
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Tammy Nowotny
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Yeah, but L$500/sqm with ads certainly is!
Especially when it is adjacent to another similarly-priced plot with banlines on it. :D
The fake halo gig ain't workin', Robo.
Yup
Pure comedy gold! I just hope LL are consistent with this policy, it's about time this happened!
Warned for following TOS!
When you are cited for not violating TOS, well see how funny it is. I am sure that we can all agree that LL policies and inconsistencies have destroyed the whole grid more then any adfarms. Anyone beg to differ. BTW Ciaran what SL Biz are you in,. Oh thats right spouting hot air seems to be popular with former SL business people who couldnt adapt to change!! TY\\Robo Still here and following the TOS!!!
another note on this!
Don't cheer to loud but I am removing the banlines. You will see an ad in each sim I have an adplot in thought to promote Blue Diamond Gaming (until LL decides to violate their own TOS again)http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastiat/89/84/28. this may not make some of you happy but with the most extensive ad grid in SL, how camn I not utilize 1 plot per sim.
ROBO
speaking of casinos
LOL, Robo. Advertising a casino on the mainland is totally against the TOS... a much more egregious violation than putting up ban lines around an empty parcel for no good reason. Operating a casino on the Grid is only allowable if you use a non-Linden Lab server which currently is impossible unless you are IBM (although it will be possible in a few months.)
Also, I might add that it would be pointless putting up banlines around a parcel with an ad sign on it because no one could click on it. (SL doesn't let you click on objects located on parcels you are banned from.)
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Tammy Nowotny
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Once again your ignorance shines thru Tammy!
I am not advertising a casino Tammy that would completely violate TOS you are correct. We have LL approved games that contain skill elements. Also if there are banlines up on advertising plots then it was purely an error on my part. May I suggest that you stop by bastiat and play a few games. Stimulation of the brain \cells you have left may stop anymore from dissapearing.
TY
Robo
No one needs to beg..
"When you are cited for not violating TOS, well see how funny it is. I am sure that we can all agree that LL policies and inconsistencies have destroyed the whole grid more then any adfarms. Anyone beg to differ."
But, dear Robo, you WERE cited for violating the ToS. You see, the ToS ALSO includes prohibitions from harassing people, scamming, and disturbing the peace. This isn't the first time you've been cited, either. Likely, it won't be the last. I've recently ARed you for adfarming, too, so stop acting like you have a tiny dirty smudge on your otherwise shiny armor, when it is BEYOND CLEAR to everyone that it is quite the opposite. No, wait.. *rubs off the tiny shiny spot which is so obviously out of place* there we go. :D
[quote]BTW Ciaran what SL Biz are you in,. Oh thats right spouting hot air seems to be popular with former SL business people who couldnt adapt to change!! TY\\Robo Still here and following the TOS!!![/quote]
Pure comedy. :D Too bad it is so formulaic and trite. Let's see, you're still here because you adapt well to the ever-changing landscape of SL which is slowly eliminating ways for you to scam people out of a L$? Yeah, that's adaptation, alright. *rolls eyes*
Cheer for you to remove banlines? Why should anyone have any desire to cheer? Did you do it out of the goodness of your heart *laugh*? or was it because you were warned to remove them at the penalty of having your account suspended again?
Oh, wow, now we have more ad-spam to replace them. Yes, I can see how wonderful a change that is! By the way, I have meaning to ask, how goes those GAMBLING ("nudge slot") machines which charge L$15000 a spin? Got any takers yet? I bet there are THOUSANDS of residents just DYING to play your US$70-a-spin slot machines. Maybe you're not advertising them well enough.
Are you even for real *occasionally*?
Like it or not..
the points in Marx's log are valid. People who decry the Ad Farms permissibility via the ambiguities of the TOS must surely appreciate that the inconsistencies extend to the ad farmers themselves. The irony is delicious of course, but the sword swings both ways. The ambiguities that allowed these tactics are now being used against the tacticians in equally ambiguous ways.
Though I detest these practices and hold little respect for the practitioners, the problem remains that both sides are fighting against each other waving the TOS flag while LL simply does whatever is convenient for them at the moment. If I were on either side of this issue, I'd be looking at the guy in the middle with a bit more scrutiny.
Good points
This is a very valid point and one that I shouldn't have overlooked. Not agreeing with a business model is one thing but the incosnistent application of the TOS is a concern for all of us.
I call BS
They are HARDLY valid, Konner. HARDLY. Maggie sums up any discrepancy in the situation VERY succinctly:
"Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used. If you can give me a justified reason for banlines on a 16m parcel that isn't "irritating your neighbors into buying the land from you", I'm interested. I can't think of any, personally. It may just be my limited understanding."
There is NO PURPOSE to banlines on a 16/32 sqm parcel. NONE. Well, except one: to extort money from people via harassment. Something ROBO knows very well. Something that, apparently, Maggie Linden knows very well, too, which justifies her awesome responses. Too bad she isn't in charge of things.
ROBO can wave the ToS flag all he wants, however, it is BEYOND clear what his little game is (SCAMMER, CON ARTIST, etc), and there is NOTHING "ToS friendly" about his activities. Yeah, sure, he scrambles to get in line with whatever the Lindens are doing today to stop X practice, only when he gets pinched for it, but the core of who he is and his raison d'etre in SL doesn't change.
Those of us who are his VICTIMS are only doing what we have to BECAUSE of him. If LL would do the right thing by girding their loins, growing a backbone, say "NO MORE OF THIS BS", and just ban him and the other parasites, a LOT of people would be beyond happy. I would guarantee you that SL (and the mainland) would grow as a result.
Jack Linden keeps promising a "new policy" which will fix these problems (and the associated "problem children") "Real Soon Now" (tm), and has for months. Either LL will FINALLY resolve the issue, or it will be a REAL bloodbath on the mainland, the forums, office hours, etc.
I think you need to reread
You're a self-proclaimed "victim" of Robo Marx. And as such you've taken my words as justifying Robo Marx's actions. Your victim mentality is appreciated, but allowing it to blind your ability to see it for what it is, this is troublesome. Nonetheless. This is NOT validating Robo Marx's business practices. I do not approve of them.
But in your conclusion you yourself introduce disparities between LL's actions and their words. The ambiguities of their TOS has plagued you, the assumed antagonist of Ad Farming" we might assume in favor of the other side. But in seeing that "the other side" is also "suffering" due to the ambiguities, it introduces this idea that both parties are pitted against each other due to the middle figure, the Linden Complex, who is the sole beneficiary in these disputes. Why don't you ask yourself why you're "victims" and who victimized you? Ask yourself why it's continuing. Who is the evil in the world? The people who exploit or those in the position to maintain social order but instead do nothing? Think on that.
I'll call your attention to Maggie's other statements
SHE doesn't even know why the decision was made. So she's not use to me in a discussion of ambiguities. If the ambassadors speaking with customers on behalf of the company are no clearer in these issues than we are, I find that very problematic.
Let me restate that I have no pity for people who build their business practices around eyesores. Nor do I have much pity for people who perpetuate the practice through purchasing ugly parcels when tier costs money and ad farmers wouldn't pay the tier if nobody was buying these eyesores. Who do I pity? I pity the collective community. Two sides are fighting. Neither have any power. Lost in a dispute. Assigning blame. Changing nothing.
These kinds of arguments are never popular, because they deemphasize the blame one may cast on the assumed villain - in this case, the ad farmer. People like their traditional mindsets. Arguments are much easier when you're the victim and "the other" is the problem. Having to accept that "the other" is componential to a much more significant "wrong" is hard to accept.
Such talk is typically labeled "conspiracy theory." But I'm not a conspiracy theorist. My background is in the social sciences. After years mucking through eons of societal conflict, I've realized that A) Conflict is part of our being B) Conflict with the accessible 'other" is preferred because they are the immediately obvious and/or convenient target of blame. C) People are married to dichotomies - us v. them without considering outside influences.
I ask you to think on what I'm suggesting in earnest. I am not saying the parties are equally right or wrong. I am not arguing for/against either side. What I am saying is that people on different sides are dealing with a similar issue.
We simply must think bigger. And that is that.
TY Konner
I would like to thank you Konner for understanding where I am coming from here. Even if you don’t like my business practice, that is beside the point here. The point I was making was the lack of respect some LL employees have for paying customers , lack of TOS knowledge, and bias when enforcing TOS. Id also like to do a little recap on the issues some of your readers with lower IQs missed out on. In the future hopefully they will read before they open their mouths and insert their feet. I removed ban lines, even though this policy is biased against me. If you see ban lines please advise and I will remove them. ARing me just makes more work for LL, and they prefer you contact violators first(even though I’m not really violating TOS). Secondly, using cheap ad plots to advertise goods or services is not a violation of TOS, its a good marketing technique, that some users on this very blog use. Finally, all games in Bastiat are LL legal because they include an element of skill so no TOS is violated. See here: https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/security.asp?task=ticket . Before you waste anymore of the LL governance teams valuable time, know what your talking about first. If some of you invested more time in an SL business and less worrying about others, the SL economy would be ten time stronger then what it currently is. BTW, there are no 15k slots on bastiast. And asking whether or not there are any takers reveals the true dilemma some here have with the actions of BDVR, JEALOUSY. Granted Bastiat has only been open a few weeks, but let me put it this way. Do you think I have takers on 32sqm plots at $L9999. Wouldn’t you like to know. Time has shown BDVR is still around so obviously some $L has been made. As time will tell with BDG. Without any risk, there will be no reward. If Robo Marx was afraid of risk he wouldn’t be here today either. (SPECIAL NOTE TO TAMMY) If quote unquote Escorts didn’t do sexual favors for clients they would no longer exist Tammy.(this business seems a bit seedy to me, but Avis are making $$$-Good for them!!! You don’t hear me complaining!! Mind your business and place few ads, you’ll probably do better then you have ever done before!
TY
Robo
www.bluediamondvirtual.info
You're crossing the line, Robo.
While I'm happy to be objective, there's no reason to thank me for it. I think ad farmers' existence on what appears to me as "the fringes of permissibility" may serve an important purpose in provoking the right people paying enough money to take a stand.
In terms of you specifically, I think there are some key points that would benefit from analysis. So I will be contacting you in world for an interview.
But I take issue where insulting an unspecified number of "my readers" where their readership is concerned. This is Ciaran's article and therefore HIS readers, but I think he'd agree with me. So I'll thank you once again to keep your arguments specific to the individual or individuals.
Theres no Fringe in My busniness.
I deal in high traffic and roadside areas. Im not saying im better then any1 who cuts land. But look at where my plots are. Why do you think the discussion of my nudge slots and gaming came into play on this blog. It hasnt been open 2 weeks!!!! Why do you think they were ARD so quickly, evn though dozens of others flourish. Cause people can find mine.... How did I build such a Hi traffic rating at my business in Bastiat alreay. Other businesses also built around mine due to this. Do you think I know about advertising here in Sl just a little bit. Not that you have to look hard, but cruise down any road and find an ad system_ BTE MGK whoever. These are run by professionals. The grids they are building could one day be worth a fortune to major corporations. If LL doesnt continue to manipulate residents to help them take them over or just claim eminent domain. LL needs to do its job and create traffic, improve software, and help solidify the economy. The ML grid could be the HUB of all virtual worlds if/when teleports ever become available between 1 another in open source format. www.opensource.org Alot of people KNOW this behind the scenes-Alot are also forming their own little grids just incase-Un Network, Arbor Memebers(Of course theyll deny), Lindens, and many other mebers of the Sl community-Look around in buy/sell view once in a while! see that one little bare plot sitting there for years. Guaranteed the owner has 100's of others if not 1000s This isnt a joke, Im not here to harass anyone. I hope for BDVR to be an integral part in the future of adverting in SL. With or without zoning there will be adverts in SL. I am one of the suppliers for that space here in Sl. See any fringe, I dont--All I see is alot people competing. And some even backstapping and manipulating to take the lead in a market. But deep down they all have faith in the SL model or they wouldnt be here. BELIEVE IT OR NOT!
You don't just cut land on
You don't just cut land on roadsides. We have seen you target nice sims or waterfronts in sim centers with no road in sight. I don't see cutting a ring of 32m lots around a water lot in the center of an ad free sim as an effort to promote positive advertising. You know what I think your doing. I don't need to say it again. And I have no doubt that you know a lot about advertising, I just see it as negative and abusive advertising at the cost of the community. I'd like to think I know a lot about advertising in SL too. I think I did an ok job of marketing myself and my land business and I never had to do so in a manner that hurt others or destroyed property values of others. I honestly hope LL comes up with a solution that caters to everyone. I don't care if thats in the form of regulated and unregulaed sims or whatever. I just hope they address the issue soon as promised.
Ok you werent to harsh Sarah
First off we wont get into what I know RL.
Running businesses since I was 13.(yeah just cutting grass to start LOL)
ED BA Economics I dont say this to put down those w/o degrees, Bill Gates dont have one! Its for all you college kids that think you can outsmart me! Leave arbor and plant real tree if that’s not to much work for you.
Investing in RL companies since 18
INCLD stocks bond treasuries Futures options Mutual’s.
OK anyway back to segments of my game plan here:
Drawn here by the Ansche article on CNBC.
Started out selling small plots
Realized there was a huge market for small plots in certain areas IE roadside HI TRAFFIC** and CS
Where some land dealers make 300 on a large pc and pay a lot more tier, I was able to make up to 1000 on a pc in the right area. Yes I have flipped larger pcs at a great deal of profit, but its a lot harder to find them of course.
After dealing with advertisers I came aware that just flipping all the plots for sale wasn’t the smartest thing. When you look at the grids some are forming I realized building a whole portfolio of small plots could be a great asset to the future of the business. Maintaining the tier on these isn’t too costly. I offer a buyout options for the last ones I have in a sim at 5000 or so(don’t laugh only $16-17) just to large property owners in area. The reason I say don’t laugh is because it almost hurts me to sell these last plots, especially if there aren’t too many ad plots in the sim. Here’s why: Say one day a marketing firm comes to me and says you have 4000 32s in unique sims, well give you 50 or 100 a pc for them(200-400K) Seem far fetched? Most companies that buy out another website usually pay $1 or more per verified user. So if the customer base in SL grows to say 100 million worldwide (not including bots) why wouldn’t they spend a paltry $2-400k for permanent ad grid that would be very inexpensive to run in hi traffic areas. Crazy? M knows a lot about marketing, sure he’s thought about it. If LL had any real business sense before not just tech sense, they would of already implemented an ad grid in the system. I’m sure that will be coming soon enough. This isn’t about harassment, and its not about making a measly 500 or 1000 a month. Its a long term investment. I don’t have time to log on with 1000 alts and grief those who grief me. And no Im not INT, PROF!! The only reason I have time to BS so much on this site now is cause I had Knee surgery cause I blew it out last month in a soccer game. I just wanna log on build my land portfolio, make a little $$ for my time now and log out. (FYI make quite a bit more per hour RL) Same reason I started the gaming place. I hoped to build it get some traffic and make some $$$. But some haters out there couldn’t leave me alone. Then the virtual police decide to crack down on me, even though the nudgers have been legal since the gambling ban and there are 100 places utilizing them now. Including some of the very people who give me hard time. Hmmm!!! As with the ads, is it what I’m doing or the simple fact that they are too! Now don’t everyone out there use my biz plan to start an adplot Biz! I’m sure some of you will, that’s ok. I’ve even helped people to start a competing business. I guess I’m a nice guy--LOL But as with everything in SL, whenever you make $$$ they change the rules. That doesn’t mean Im gone as some of you hope, just means its time for a new game plan.(that’s under wraps for now tho)
Robo
www.bluediamondvirtual.info
I'll say it again
If you come up with an advertising stream that doesn't damage my product but I'll be interested. I've complained before that inworld advertising is rubbish. I will advertise again in Bart Heart's club again shortly, that was effective. I've been busy doing other stuff and my spot lapsed but I'll go there, that's a location where adverts are welcome.
You're right to point out your model has worked so far, but it's a model that is constantly on the edge of being banned and I don't want to see you constantly frustrated. I enjoyed our inworld chat, no matter what others say about it being you putting on the charm, I found it constructive.
So here' a challenge to you and TAG, come up with an advertising solution that inworld business owners are crying out for, we'll be grateful, I can assure you.
Hm.
The argument for continuing the behavior is that it's permissible under the TOS. The arguments against it are social mores. You've just implied that you 'and others' would be interested in a 'legitimized' advertising model. Do we have any evidence to conclude that legitimacy would increase sales? Or it would merely stop the attacks on businesses that use the current system? And to what degree are these things the same?
It's sort-of been my argument towards LL in these issues. But I'm curious if it would hold for the enduser businessperson.
km
Tragic Hero Robo
No, when you CHEAT to make $$$, they change the rules, and rightfully so.
Of course, you will come back with "LOL. It's not cheating, it's just business!". It is people like you who give capitalism a bad name. Unfortunately, it is why pure capitalism will ultimately fail as an economic model, since people just cannot be trusted to play fair. They will always see "playing fair" as "losing money to the other guy".
That's why there will always be government, and it will always have to regulate private enterprise to death, because by its very nature, it won't play nice with everyone else. It is an untamable beast which, if left unchecked, will devour lives and resources whole and leave nothing but debris and ruin in its wake.
I used to be all for government non-interference in private enterprise, but after 20 years in business, and 30 years in my field, I don't see how private enterprise can be left solely to its own devices. I still decry excessive government interference where it isn't necessary and is harmful, but when a business becomes about exploiting, abusing, and monopolizing the public good, it's time to wish it into the cornfield. I'm a staunch Libertarian now, but only when it comes to the rights and liberties of /people/, NOT corporate entities.
For what it is worth, Robo, as a person, I am sorry to hear that you are injured and I hope you recover fully. However, as a businessman, I really cannot sanction or condone the way you do "business". I find your actions unconscionable on so many levels that I don't see any way for you to be redeemed. Not that you care, though; I understand that, to you, it is "just business", and we're all just pixel people who don't mean anything to you, other than how much we can put into your wallet. Just know that, as far as we're concerned, we WILL NOT be "doing business" with you, or anyone associated with you, and will freely advise people to avoid doing so as well.
Something you should have learned in your time at college is that it is hard to get one good customer, but REAL easy to get ten unhappy ones, and it is likely that the latter will cost you far more than the former makes for you in profits. A good reputation is fleeting; a bad reputation will hang around for a long, long time.
Ty for your thoughts, your a staunch libertarian I dont think so
Firstly, I dont know any avatars named annonymous so, Im not to worried about doing business with you. If I was worried about namesakes I could do like every1 else in SL and create an alt to run a different business. Bottom line is this; Advertising promotes businesses and sometimes runs 1/2 their budgets. So love it or hate it its always going to be there.
******* Also ANON Staunch libertarian LOL
Below is QUOTE form their site maybe you shoul read more into YOUR PARTY!!!!! You seem to blab here like your some sophisticated scholar but you contradicted yourseld in the same paragraph here. Your a staunh libertarian, who "I used to be all for government non-interference in private enterprise" . Im sure the libertarian party isnt too concerned about me cutting up space on a computer server. Now if I claimed eminent domain to steal your personal property you would have a good case with them.
Anyway read on about how your party feels:
"2.0 Economic Liberty
A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. ****All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.****"
Quoted from http://www.lp.org/platform.
Before you identify yourself with some1 you should know about them. Ask Intlibber Brautigan he's a staunch libertarian!!!
******Playing fair; Im really playing a game by the rules! I didn't take your hotel off boardwalk while you werent looking. then land on it. I dint give you the horse collar right before the endzone, like Roy Williams. What I may have done is strategically placed my queen and said checkmate. And you obviously cant stand losing.
ROBO Marx
yes its really me NF :'p
Reading comprehension -10
I'm well aware of the value of GOOD, HONEST advertising. Advertising that doesn't take advantage of other people's patience, tolerance, and goodwill. Advertising that doesn't piss people off the instant they see it or how it is presented. Some principles with which you should become acquainted.
I never claimed the LP cared what happened. I said I am one, with a caveat. I don't have to buy into their platform or policy framework wholesale to support them. No one's political agenda is perfect for everyone, so I qualified my support of them.
Of course, in your emphasis on the specified sentence that you think supports your claims, you COMPLETELY glossed over the preceding sentence, which is not only EQUALLY important, it sets the context for the emphasized sentence: "The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected". So many things you do violate any sensible "legal framework" for business and voluntary trade. You violate "property rights" of others via your tactics, directly destroying others' property values to support your own means. That's what makes you a parasite, Robo. You don't create alongside others, supporting them. Your very act of creation is bathed in the blood from the destruction of others.
You're playing by your own set of rules, which, slowly, but surely are being supplanted by Linden Lab's rules via warnings and the constant threat of suspension and banishment, at the behest of those you abuse and harass. You want clear rules where a line can be drawn? You're about to get them. You won't like it, and probably neither will anyone else, but since you aren't interested in "adjudication" and playing fair in the first place, that's what we all are going to get.
In your case, I won't be able to say they have come too soon.
As for your chess analogy, there's one flaw: the piece that you are calling a "queen" is actually an unpromoted pawn, which we keep telling you, but it is going to take LL "cleaning your glasses" for you, so-to-speak, to force you realize it and stop trying to cheat.
I don't mind losing from a fair game. However, the one you play is far from any semblance of "fair" that anyone else understands.
Once again I read and comprehended as you Bloviate!
First off, as I stated before the LP party would not extend property rights to server space on a computer grid. Do they sit in front of billboards in the real world and protest no. Maybe a proposed dump site in a residential neighborhood. Does cutting trees in RL to make lumber and paper ruin the environment. Yes a lot of the time. But things need to be done to support the worlds economy. What is more devastating. Cutting trees or cutting land in SL? I would say trees. But it needed, right. What effects the world population more. Do you think your RL neighbor gives two sh@#s about me cutting land in SL. NO!!!
I rarely get any kind of warnings here in SL, and usually its for a rule that was not broken. I am not asking for new rules, I want the rules in place at the time to be followed. Unlike you I don’t have to beg LL to change the rules to suit my own needs, because I can survive here. I have shown time and time again that I am able to adapt. I’m still not aware of what you do here in Sl besides bloviate. But, if you are in land sales in SL and like to petition them to change things so much, you should first aim to change their erratic land production policies which have caused a lot of financial harm to run of the mill ML dealers as I assume you are.
PAWN- Come on now, I don’t think so and you don’t believe that. No one here pulls my strings, you maybe tugging on LL strings or Arbor may be pulling on yours. Pawns are the ones here who grief me because LL puts their faults on my shoulders, to shed their inability to run a business.
In conclusion, I am eagerly waiting the new land policies and profitable possibilities they may bring all of us. I need not fear the new rules, because I am able to adapt. But, if you are unable to adapt as in the past what will you do? We may never know. If your here standing up for the people in SL as you claim and really run a business, it may behoove you to release your avatars name. I you are such a wonderful person they may flock to your business since you promote FAIRER business practices. You’ll probably just end up at another GTeam meetings, shedding a few tears and beg for some new rules, when its really just your own inept ability to survive in the SL economy.
THE END,
I’ve got work to do, how about you!
Robo Marx
No, I read it fine the first time.
Unless you mean something other than what you said, that is. If that is the case, I cannot help you there; I am not a mind-reader, especially over the intarwebs.
You claimed Robo's comments in his blog entry are "valid". I disputed this. I never claimed that you supported his actions, I simply maintain that you are incorrect in calling his points "valid". Now, if you want to take this to a pedantic level, we can discuss each point and Maggie's response to it in detail, but I think you realize as much as I do what that will accomplish.
I'm well aware that we're all a victim of LL's inept and almost criminally incompetent handling of the whole deal, extending even farther back than the "Impeach Bush" guy. However, just because the "government" fails to criminalize, via arresting and prosecuting, something akin to burglary, doesn't give the "burglar" any moral high ground to claim points in support of his activities. Burglary is still wrong, and there is little to no defense to be made against ultimately being ganked for it in the end, regardless of the level of governmental bumbling in getting around to doing so, or the amount of reciprocity orchestrated by the community in absence of such.
I've spent the last 6 months going at these parasites and spending countless HOURS sitting in Jack's and Robin's office hours, writing up reams of material, gathering folders of evidence, and even helping to orchestrate a movement to put an end to their abuse once and for all. Your observation that it is all moot unless LL decides to do something about it is an astute one, to be sure, but is definitely not news.
The fact of the matter is that LL HAS to do something about it. It is finally starting to seriously affect their bottom line. Allowing the parasites to piss in the pool has had the expected effect: people are leaving it, in droves. They are NOT leaving it for private estates, at least not to the level that many estate owners would have you believe (since quite a few of them are in collusion with the adfarmers -- something which, I assure you, sir, is NOT simply a "conspiracy theory"; we have testimony and evidence from the adfarmers themselves to that effect).
The next obvious questions of "will they do it" and "will they do it RIGHT *THIS* time" are still yet to be answered; we're still in the stupid holding pattern waiting on LL to get its bureaucracy machine cranked and rolling on the problem. I won't disagree with you that LL's system has been a SERIOUS FAILURE for a long time, and will most likely continue to be. We've seen our share of people fighting the adfarmers getting ganked for making reasonable responses to them, either via suspensions, warnings, or having objects returned.
Even still, it doesn't absolve of or validate Robo's or any of his cronies' crimes (yes, last time I checked, fraud, extortion, harassment, etc are crimes, though not prosecutable ones in RL since the context is SL). Whether there is a governmental structure in place or not to deal with them is immaterial to this fact. You might feel tasked to find some esoteric ways in which Robo's actions are linked to a greater problem related to LL, but I don't suffer from that drive. To me, it is beyond clear that people who take the antisocial route in community participation, especially focusing their efforts to benefit themselves financially at the cost of the community, deserve to be ostracized and, eventually, excised from that community, preferably with extreme prejudice. Otherwise, what is the point? If people have no reason to avoid screwing over their fellow man for a lousy clam, what is so great about having a community in the first place? Quoth Ripley: "I don't know which species is worse; at least you don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage."
As far as I am concerned, I am in SL to make things, sell things I make, help other people do the same, entertain, be entertained, and take no more out than I put in. I don't expect everyone to share that ideal, as everyone is in it for their own reasons, but I will be damned if I will tolerate someone who poisons the well for the rest of us. Especially when he does it right under our very nose, acting sanctimonious about it the whole time, feigning indignation EACH and EVERY time he ends up getting ganked for it, either by LL, or by the community itself.
While I am no fan of conspiracy theories and tinfoil-hat-ism, I am also quite well aware that there does seem to be a kind of predilection towards some of the worst of the parasites. I can AR and put in tickets on FLAGRANT abuse, and it will take DAYS to WEEKS before they are looked at by a Linden, whereas one of the worst of these assholes can completely fabricate a "harassment" situation, and get a Linden there in 30 minutes flat. I witnessed that today. Even have pictures!
So, yeah, I have considered the things you have said, and I agree with a small part of what you have put forth, but I reject the notions that Robo has said ANYTHING valid about himself or his situation. His bed is of his own making, and soon, if there is any justice in SL, he will be made to lie in it along with all his comrades, to the joyous shouts of thousands of residents, at long last freed from suffering the results of their odious activities.
Conflict may be a part of our being, but so is conflict resolution. Robo (as well as Austin, Cytherea, Prince, TAG, etc) is a "convenient" target of blame only because he makes himself so. "I'm a burglar, and I'm OK!" Yeah well, try not to scream too loudly when the axe falls and your hand pops off, k?
Two things and clarification of validity argument.
1. You're making claims that you've spent six months fighting the ad farmers. This is the point when you need to identify yourself. An argument made on it's own merit anonymously is fine. An argument made on your personal efforts left anonymous really isn't.
2. I think we agree far more than you realize. So far, your only disagreement extends from my use of the word "valid." Here's the basis for that, from his post:
Clear guidelines. You say that Robo is a scammer. At least part of this argument stems from his ad farms. Does LL share that opinion? Say that LL took Robo's history of ad farming into account here. Well, their inaction in that regard makes ad farms permissible. So using it to determine this instance as sheer extortion is dubious.
Robo was notified post hoc that a was decision had been made. He wasn't questioned. And in the log, he was mocked. Maggie "interpreted" but didn't clarify. Say Delicious Demar or did the same thing Robo did here. Would she be warned for it?
Again, I'm not validating Robo Marx. But I do hope my argument is clearer. I'm inclined to wonder why ad farms are not visual spam but ban lines are. Is this solely because LL has deemed creating new plots that forbid ban lines to be an inviable way to boost sales?
I'm not sure why you're remaining anonymous. But I want to invite you to contact me inworld or via email. Your posts here and on other articles intrigue me.
Mixing objective/subjective comments and anonymity
1) My only "need" to identify myself is to validify subjective comments and arguments. However, not doing so does not invalidate the objective ones, which are also a part of what I have said, and they are quite capable of standing on their own merits. I have no problem with doing so at some point, and probably will shortly. The last few times I have spoken out against the parasites publicly in the community forums, I have been harassed in-world by them. So, when I have the forbearance to deal with their backlash again, I'll be happy to post my name publicly.
2) I think they HAVE set clear guidelines. What part of "no harassment" and "no spam" does everyone miss? The PROBLEM is a lack of proper implementation of those guidelines, and not having a consistent and professional response to their residents. It all very much smacks of an amateur customer service and maintenance organization. That is what we have been trying to tell Jack Linden and LL in general this past year; that they don't need to come up with a wide, sweeping set of new rules; they simply need to properly recognize what amounts to flagrant violations of the existing rules, and apply them.
I also don't agree with Robo's use of "respect all aspects of the business community" to characterize himself. Robo is no more a legitimate "business" in SL than a meth lab is in RL.
In actually, Robo has been warned numerous times for all manner of activities related to adfarming. This situation is no different. The "decision" you refer to was to WARN HIM yet again for a specific violation. That's the way their abuse reporting system works. You get ARed, LL investigates, makes a decision WITHOUT INVOLVING YOU, and decides on the "proper" course of remedy, contacting you after-the-fact with said decision and action.
I believe that Maggie is well aware of who and what Robo is, as it comes through in her comments quite succintly. OK, yeah, a police officer needs to still listen to and treat offenders with a modicum of respect, however, Maggie isn't a police officer. Robo went to the Housing Authority to complain about the police "mistreating" him. Well, yah, the Housing Authority folks know ALL about him, because he's in "real estate", but have no particular reason to concern themselves with his issues with the police department. As a result, they basically tell him to go see the police department, and have a chuckle at his expense for crying to them about receiving a speeding ticket for *gasp* speeding.
So, yes, I think that, with his history of being warned numerous times for flagrant violations of various policies, they are quite aware of his activities. I don't think Maggie's responses rise to the level of "sarcasm" that he interprets them as, but are quite appropriate for the situation where he's crying about something stupid to the WRONG person. Was it the absolute best treatment of his issue? No, clearly, Maggie could have been a robot and repeated "I'm sorry, sir, but I can't help you; the Governance Team is two doors down on the left". As for being supportive, I don't see how ANYone from the Concierge team could be supportive of Robo with that issue. How do you help someone who tries to justify putting ban/access lines on microplots by saying it is for PRIVACY?? ESPECIALLY someone with Robo's history.
As for Delicious Demar, I don't know her well enough to understand your choice in that substitution analogy, but I presume from what I do know that, if she did something like cut up 16/32sqm plots, put them up for sale at excessively high prices, and put up banlines to harass others into buying them out, that she would likely also be warned if ARed. At least, I would hope so. Whether or not Maggie would have treated her the same way as Robo is immaterial, since Maggie pretty much has nothing to do with the issue. However, I wouldn't necessarily expect her to, unless Delicious came off as being as unbelievably incredulous as Robo usually does in that situation. I think any particular representatives response is a combination of factors, not the least of which are the situation itself and the resident's posture towards the rep and the issue.
You also have an issue of familiarity that goes missing in reading one posted instance of Robo<->LL interacting. Given that Robo has had a constant stream of interaction with various Lindens over his antics for the last 8 months, it may very well be that Maggie has had to deal with his BS enough times that her exasperation is showing. I can't really blame her there.
Ultimately, the trap that LL has fallen into is one of requiring "letter of the law" specificity where the "law" does not even remotely have the level of detail required to support such. It comes as a result of having a HORRENDOUSLY POOR abuse reporting, management, and governance organization, since it would be EXTREMELY EASY to operate one based on consistent interpretation of "case law", established by trusted and well-trained governance members, acting both swiftly and proactively to issues early on.
By the way, do you think that they (Robo, Prince, etc) have been using banlines on 16sqm plots for two years? Nope! The vast majority of them that put up banlines on their 16s began that tactic AFTER the February policy went into effect. Ads no longer were allowed to directly harass people into buying overpriced plots, so they fell back to the next best thing they could find that didn't get them into trouble. In addition, they also started using "associated" tactics where, of cuts out of a 512sqm parcel, some would be set up as adtower lots, set NOT for sale (to abide by the policy), some would be set for sale at extortion prices, but with NO ads (though often with banlines), and the rest would be dumped to the landbots to recover tier. This tactic, among others, has been well-documented and supplied to LL as part of our campaign to rid the mainland of the Scourge.
I wish you the best.
Since our back-and-forth, there's been this habit of me making a statement, and you either disagreeing only to agree with it later, or agreeing by restating it in your own words independently of my writing.
After reading your last comment, the discomfort I'd had in reading your previous responses manifested as concern. They seem almost pathological. I find myself wondering if your goal is to solve the problem or if Robo has become your own personal Moby Dick.
Having chased my own whales in the not-so-distant past, I want to suggest (and thereafter hope) that you take a step back and reassess. Fight for what you believe in(kudos for that, by the way), but keep your head about you or your ferocity will take you down roads you'd simply rather not go.
Good Luck.
You just stay Anonymous.
Makes your thoughts more unbelieveable. And I am sure a Linden didnt waste their time on fabrications. The reason you withhold your name is because you were probably griefing a legitimate SL businessperson. So I throw down the gaunlett, put your avis name out so the one you griefed can expalin to us what really happened! BTW if you were actually making money in Sl you wouldnt have hours to sit in Jack and Robins office sobbing. You would be out in the ML making $$. And if your concerned about lack of restriction in ML, do what I did and get a place in a private estate like Bastiat. No cutting, no adfarms just business people making $$ and building the SL economy. There are still a few lots left! Im sure Sarah or Ciaran have something for you if you dont want to be by neighbor, but I do draw quite a bit of traffic to the sim! LOL
Nice troll
Oh, let's see, reveal who I am to you so you and your cohorts can come by and grief and harass me some more? Oh yeah, that's really going to happen. If you're half as smart as you think you are, it shouldn't be too tough to figure out.
The people here that matter know very well who I am, and are intelligent enough to understand the concept that the message is what is important, not necessarily who is saying it.
I'm on the mainland for my own reasons, thanks, and I do quite well, making more money out of SL than I put in. You are right about one thing, though; if I didn't have to put up with dealing with you and your cohorts' BS day in and day out, I could make more money. Thankfully, I believe that problem is about to be remedied to everyone's benefit. Well, to everyone's but yours, of course. ;)
Ok whatever Anonymous
You pull out more $$ then you put in. LOL. I dont put any $$ in. But whatever go on have fun griefing people thats not my style.
Glass house. Stone thrown.
Heh. You're posting anonymously as well. Here's a hint: if you're going to post this much, register on the site. ;-)
Second Life Consultant
Go write a book or something NF!
You know its me LOL.
Besides I didnt think I was allowed due to previous correspondence on here when you threatened to throw me off, because you didnt agree with my comments.
Robo
Oy vey
Yes, as a so-called "businessman", you DO understand the concepts "expenses" and "cost of doing business", right? or does LL give you free tier?
It's called "positive net profit" when revenues exceed expenses.